Somewhat Controversial 2008 election

[Versac]

I noticed there was no thread to discuss McCain v. Obama in the upcoming election, so I thought I'd make one. Keep the slander down here, but remember that truth is never libel.

First question on table: who is everyone supporting thus far? I'm definitely leaning towards Obama, not necessarily because he's amazing, but because President McCain scares the **** out of me.

 

[webmasterbob]

To be honest, I have yet to really decide 100% in either direction. For me, it's really going to depend on what is done, said, and presented within the last few months. As a registered independent, I guess I'm exactly the body both candidates are looking to win over .

I will say this though, for the love of all that is good cite your sources in this thread. Yoyoll stated he wants to see the rich get richer (in a post I did not approve for this reason), please cite a speech, video from McCain, anything that hints at that. Same goes for any anti-Obama rhetoric. Please cite your sources or this thread will end up as nothing more than a mindless dribble fight attack!

 

[animaldude]

I'm definitely leaning towards McCain, not necessarily because he's amazing, but because President Obama scares the **** out of me.

 

[yoyolll]

To be honest, I have yet to really decide 100% in either direction. For me, it's really going to depend on what is done, said, and presented within the last few months. As a registered independent, I guess I'm exactly the body both candidates are looking to win over .

I will say this though, for the love of all that is good cite your sources in this thread. Yoyoll stated he wants to see the rich get richer (in a post I did not approve for this reason), please cite a speech, video from McCain, anything that hints at that. Same goes for any anti-Obama rhetoric. Please cite your sources or this thread will end up as nothing more than a mindless dribble fight attack!

No candidate is going to walk up on national tv and say "I only care about the rich jerks who support me and I don't give a flying **** about all the poor people in the streets". There's no way to cite this, it's theory. Bush was the same way, he won the elections because of the support from the rich folks and the corporations and the oil trade which is what really rules the country. He's not going to go up on the news and tell people this, it's what's going on behind the scenes, what's hidden from the public eye. My point is, McCain won't help national problems. At all. Not to mention he's going to keep the war going (that is his actual view, I'm fairly sure that anyone involved enough in the elections to post in here knows this already) for oil, and nothing more (this is, once again theory).

 

[Versac]

I'm definitely leaning towards McCain, not necessarily because he's amazing, but because President Obama scares the **** out of me.

Fair enough. Allow me to elaborate:

Because I know that as successful as I believe we will be, and I believe that the success [in Iraq] will be fairly easy, we will still lose some American young men or women. And that's a great tragedy.

Two problems here. First, approaching six years later and we're still fighting a war he predicted to be easy? That's a problem. As for losing 'some' Americans, the current American casualty estimate stands at (and these numbers are quite accurate):

• 4,119 dead (July '08)
• 29,330 wounded in combat (March '08)
• 31,325 hospitalized for other reasons (March '08)

That's 64,774 American casualties so far. Counts for total casualties are much harder to get for obvious reasons, but the latest decent one (Opinion Research Business) puts the number at 1,033,000 (+/- 2.5%) violent deaths as of August 2007. The biggest problem about this? When asked in a town hall meeting prior to the 2008 New Hampshire primary about a Bush comment about the occupation extending an additional 50 years, his response was:

Maybe 100. As long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed, it's fine with me and I hope it would be fine with you if we maintain a presence in a very volatile part of the world where al Qaeda is training, recruiting, equipping and motivating people every single day.

Yes, I see the qualifier in that statement: 'As long as Americans are not being injured or killed', but that just strikes me as sheer fantasy. That particular section of the world has seen almost constant bloodshed for... what, a millennium and a half? Okay, fine, only since 659 A.D. Even if Iraq suddenly turned into magical happy fairy land a green zone overnight, there's still the problem of leaving roughly 144,000 troops halfway around the world. Do you know how much the logistic support of that level of deployment costs? Here's a hint: far more than any tax hike a Democrat's proposed. [FONT=&quot][/FONT]

I think that covers the Iraq War for now, let's move on to foreign policy:

http://www.chilloutzone.de/files/08012403.html

I find the above link absolutely hilarious, mostly because, while I know next to no German, even I can tell that the page is dedicated to mocking him for his gaffe.

It's common knowledge and has been reported in the media that Al-Qaeda is going back into Iran and receiving training and are coming back into Iraq. That's well known. We continue to be concerned about the Iranians taking Al-Qaeda into Iran and training them and sending them back.... I am sorry, the Iranians are training extremists, not Al-Qaeda, not Al-Qaeda, I am sorry.

Al-Qaeda's to do list:

1. Destroy America
2. Destroy Iran

'Nuff said.

We need to go back to have a conversation about what to do: rebuild it, tear it down, you know, whatever it is.

I don't remember ever saying it.

Nothing too major here, just highlighting McCain's ability to forget policy statments he made three days ago. Moving on.

In all candor, if I'd been President of the United States, I'd have ordered the plane landed at the nearest Air Force base, and I'd have been over here, ok?

Not bad, except he was in Arizona at the time. With President Bush. Celebrating his birthday.

A quote on McCain's exhaustive VP search:

We’re going through a process where you get a whole bunch of names, and ya...Well, basically, it’s a Google. You just, you know, what you can find out now on the Internet. It’s remarkable, you know.

Yes, yes it is.

On the 'Mission Accomplished' Banner:

Well, then why was there a banner that said "Mission Accomplished" on the aircraft carrier? Look, the -- I have said a long time that reconstruction of Iraq would be a long, long, difficult process, but the conflict -- the major conflict is over, the regime change has been accomplished, and it's very appropriate.

Actually, it had been less than a year since he said it would be easy, but there's something more interesting here. Now that he's running for office and popular opinion is against Bush...

To state the obvious, I thought it was wrong at the time... those statements and comments did not comport with the facts on the ground. ... But do I blame [the President] for that specific banner? I can't blame him for that.

Interesting.

To conclude for now, I just found a very interesting movie on Youtube. Link Here.

 

[animaldude]

I think that covers the Iraq War for now, let's move on to foreign policy:

It seems that most of your case against him are his mispeaks. It's nice that McCain actually has a foreign policy.

 

[Liriano]

I'm definitely leaning towards McCain, not necessarily because he's amazing, but because President Obama scares the **** out of me.

Could you elaborate for me on how Obama scares the *** out of you. Is it that his middle name is Hussein, or maybe because Obama kind of sounds like Osama?

 

[i am a teddy]

Could you elaborate for me on how Obama scares the *** out of you. Is it that his middle name is Hussein, or maybe because Obama kind of sounds like Osama?

Well I can you why he scares the **** outta me..

His name means nothing. His last name could be Hitler for all I care. I mean, that'd suck to be him and he probably wouldn't be elected, but he didn't choose the name ya know..

How about the fact he knows nothing? He speaks nice. His sweet, sweet words that caress the modern day American with words like, "change". What is this change?

How about the fact he has limited political experience? McCain is freaking 70 something. He has his political knowledge about him, like him or not. I fear for America if Obama gets elected. TO CANADA!!

 

[animaldude]

Could you elaborate for me on how Obama scares the *** out of you. Is it that his middle name is Hussein, or maybe because Obama kind of sounds like Osama?

Let's begin:

U N i V e R s A L H E a L t H C a R E

 

[ImprobabilityDrive]

It seems that most of your case against him are his mispeaks. It's nice that McCain actually has a foreign policy.

If a candidate makes a few mistakes, they mispeak. If a candidate is consistently makes mistakes on the core elements of a situation, they demonstrate a lack of understanding in the area.

As for the often debunked but neverthless repeated claim that Obama has no plans for foreign policy, please educate yourself here:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/foreignpolicy/

 

[yoyolll]

Let's begin:

U N i V e R s A L H E a L t H C a R E

Europe seems to be doing fine with universal healthcare.

If anything it would help the economy by actually paying for the treatment of those without insurance, instead of putting them in a ridiculous amount of debt which they'll never be able to pay. Let's face it, medical care is damn expensive these days, and if you're caught at the wrong time without insurance (which many people are, whether its just unluckiness or the stupid decision to not get insurance) you're gonna be in a helluva lot of debt. Social healthcare will save us from that problem. It has a great potential to reduce debt in the country, so I propose we follow in Europe's gold-paved path.

 

[Liriano]

Well I can you why he scares the **** outta me..

His name means nothing. His last name could be Hitler for all I care. I mean, that'd suck to be him and he probably wouldn't be elected, but he didn't choose the name ya know..

How about the fact he knows nothing? He speaks nice. His sweet, sweet words that caress the modern day American with words like, "change". What is this change?

How about the fact he has limited political experience? McCain is freaking 70 something. He has his political knowledge about him, like him or not. I fear for America if Obama gets elected. TO CANADA!!

I would like for you to show me a credible source, explaining how he knows "nothing." Until then I'm going to disregard the comment.

We've already discussed the "experience" issue here before, but we can continue. If it is age that you are using as an estimate of experience, you need to rethink your argument. Both have enough political experience to run a country. It's the plans that each one of them presents, and the needs of the country, that you use to decide who to support.

To answer your question of Obama's changes, an example would be his plan for the War in Iraq.

 

[Versac]

It seems that most of your case against him are his mispeaks. It's nice that McCain actually has a foreign policy.

Or bad intel. Or just flat out waffling. If you thought Kerry was bad, just check the last Youtube video. Seriously, give it a look.

Two things. First, did you even look for Obama's policy?!?

http:www.barackobama.com/issues/foreignpolicy

It's not hard to find...

Secondly, what is McCain's foreign policy anyway?

Well I can you why he scares the **** outta me..

His name means nothing. His last name could be Hitler for all I care. I mean, that'd suck to be him and he probably wouldn't be elected, but he didn't choose the name ya know..

How about the fact he knows nothing? He speaks nice. His sweet, sweet words that caress the modern day American with words like, "change". What is this change?

How about the fact he has limited political experience? McCain is freaking 70 something. He has his political knowledge about him, like him or not. I fear for America if Obama gets elected. TO CANADA!!

Why is it held against a candidate when they invoke the concepts of 'hope' and 'change'. Just discard it - if you're smart enough to question it, you're not the target audience. Look deeper if you want details, and you will find them.

Speaking of nebulous concepts, here's another one: 'experience'. Here's a open challenge - show me a concrete example of how McCain's time in office has progressively made him a better legislatior.

Let's begin:

U N i V e R s A L H E a L t H C a R E

This is bad why? There are strong arguments both for and against, and red text and odd capitalization are in neither category. I'm going to have to ask you to try again, this time with thinking.

 

[animaldude]

This is bad why? There are strong arguments both for and against, and red text and odd capitalization are in neither category. I'm going to have to ask you to try again, this time with thinking.

I was bringing up a topic for us to discuss.

 

[UltimaLink007]

Many things frighten me. This frightens me a lot.

Voted NO on declaring English as the official language of the US government.​

​

This makes me so sad... If not English, then what? ​

 

[animaldude]

Obama votes cast him left of his own party

Mr. Obama was the only member of the state Senate to vote against a bill to prohibit the early release of convicted criminal sexual abusers; was among only four who voted against bills to toughen criminal sentences and to increase penalties for "gangbangers" and dealers of Ecstasy; and voted "present" on a bill making it harder for abusive parents to regain custody of their children, a Washington Times review of Illinois legislative records shows.

To sum up: Obama wants sex offenders to roam the streets. Obama doesnt think that drug dealers deserve harsh penalties. And Obama doesnt want to make it harder for abusive parents to gain control of their children.

That is insane.

And this is what happens when you let sex offenders roam the streets.

[FONT=impact,sans-serif]Boy killer smirks as death
pronounced in court[/FONT]

BOISE, Idaho — A longtime sex offender was sentenced to death Wednesday for the 2005 kidnapping, torture and murder of a 9-year-old northern Idaho boy after federal jurors who watched video of some of the brutality deliberated just three hours.
(warning the next part is disgusting)
He took Dylan and the boy's then-8-year-old sister, Shasta, to a remote western Montana campsite where he raped, tortured and threatened them before shooting Dylan in the head and burning his body. Jurors viewed horrifying video Duncan made of him sexually abusing, torturing and hanging Dylan until the boy lost consciousness.

 

[Versac]

Obama votes cast him left of his own party




To sum up: Obama wants sex offenders to roam the streets. Obama doesnt think that drug dealers deserve harsh penalties. And Obama doesnt want to make it harder for abusive parents to gain control of their children.

That is insane.

And this is what happens when you let sex offenders roam the streets.

[FONT=impact,sans-serif]Boy killer smirks as death
pronounced in court[/FONT]

Interesting summation. And here I thought that 'early release' meant earned parole. You don't get parole if you don't earn it. As the article did not explain what constitutes a 'sex offender', I am going to have to question that as well. In New Jersey, public urination counts as a sex crime. Should you be denied parole for having a full bladder? Of course not. Granted, there are many, many sex offenders that should not be granted parole, but guess what? They aren't! The system is designed to reward the rehabilitated, and blanket restrictions only choke out scenarios of true exemption.

You believe that Illinois law should be tougher on drug dealers? Fine, that's a reasonable stance... unless you haven't looked up Illinois law and are making an uninformed decision based on the groundless assumption that it isn't tough enough. So, please share with us the exact sentencing of Ecstasy dealers in Illinois, and how much longer you think they should serve.