The Official Zeldasages Political Thread

[animaldude]

Re: The American Political Madrun

As much as that would help the country, there would actually be no country left.

 

[Versac]

Re: The American Political Madrun

In a bit of defense on the immigration issue, illegals do not pay taxes in any form. They do not pay taxes through their salaries because they are here, well, illegally and thus the employer does not want to report them on their tax filings. My family runs a business and for every employee we have that is of age 18 or older we are required to report their SSN or work ID# *given in working Visas, etc* to the IRS. As they are not reported to the IRS, they do not have taxes taken.

In addition, their residence is not filed with any form of government body. Thus, they are not paying any form of housing tax. Now obviously when you visit a country the government does not expect you to pay a tax, although when you are living for years upon years on end as a working resident not paying your share...well that's just plain wrong.

How again, does a farmer pay income tax? How does an illegal get around sales tax? How does their landlord pay the property tax on their apartment without taking the money from the illegal immigrant?

How again, are they collecting welfare? How are they pulling government resources? What jobs are they taking from Americans?

Where again, would they go if we kicked them out? Back to Cuba? Back to Mexico? Should we just leave them to die?

Isn't it the children of illegal immigrants who commit crimes? The same ones who were denied anything beyond a basic government-mandated education? Aren't the actual illegal immigrants themselves the ones who keep society running? The most overlooked 5% of the workforce?

 

[webmasterbob]

Re: The American Political Madrun

How again, does a farmer pay income tax? How does an illegal get around sales tax? How does their landlord pay the property tax on their apartment without taking the money from the illegal immigrant?

Farmers pay income tax the same way that those that run a business pay income tax. They take a set amount of money they take from each profit rather than being placed back into the farming business (supplies, paying workers, etc) and this is their income. Sales tax is an exception, however sales tax contributes to the state government, not the federal government. As for apartments, that is the responsibility of the landlord. We were talking about the income tax. Property and sales taxes contribute to the state and thus have no real crutch on the federal government or the country as a whole.

How again, are they collecting welfare? How are they pulling government resources? What jobs are they taking from Americans?

No one ever said they were receiving government benefits *or at least I never did...I'm not searching through countless posts*. For this...you actually need to be a citizen of the United States; it's impossible for them to even attempt to do so without being found out. As far as jobs this was already explained in a previous post. To summarize, they are mainly labor jobs, such as construction and farmhand. There is a rather large chunk of the American populous which is poorly educated or lacks the ability to work in an office or professional environment. Are we going to let these people have some of their only opportunities for work taken away?

Where again, would they go if we kicked them out? Back to Cuba? Back to Mexico? Should we just leave them to die?

This is a grouse overstatement of what would happen. Cuba is a communist country, they'll be fine if they were to go to Cuba. Mexico is in a poor economic state, although there is no excuse for not obtaining a simple work visa. In all honesty, it's not very dificult for any Mexican citizen to obtain a work visa for the US. My uncle's construction business *DMBekus if you're in NJ and want a house btw * hires multiple work visa Mexican citizens each year. The entire process, assuming they had not committed a crime, can take less than a month to complete and they can work for years in the US.

Isn't it the children of illegal immigrants who commit crimes? The same ones who were denied anything beyond a basic government-mandated education? Aren't the actual illegal immigrants themselves the ones who keep society running? The most overlooked 5% of the workforce?

What proof do you have that it is mainly immigrant children committing crimes? That's very interesting if true, but cite your source.

Plain and simple, no. As explained many a-time they act more as a loose hinge on society rather than any form of stabilization *all sorts of fun facts proving that in my previous posts *.

 

[yoyolll]

Re: The American Political Madrun

Farmers pay income tax the same way that those that run a business pay income tax. They take a set amount of money they take from each profit rather than being placed back into the farming business (supplies, paying workers, etc) and this is their income. Sales tax is an exception, however sales tax contributes to the state government, not the federal government. As for apartments, that is the responsibility of the landlord. We were talking about the income tax. Property and sales taxes contribute to the state and thus have no real crutch on the federal government or the country as a whole.


No one ever said they were receiving government benefits *or at least I never did...I'm not searching through countless posts*. For this...you actually need to be a citizen of the United States; it's impossible for them to even attempt to do so without being found out. As far as jobs this was already explained in a previous post. To summarize, they are mainly labor jobs, such as construction and farmhand. There is a rather large chunk of the American populous which is poorly educated or lacks the ability to work in an office or professional environment. Are we going to let these people have some of their only opportunities for work taken away?



This is a grouse overstatement of what would happen. Cuba is a communist country, they'll be fine if they were to go to Cuba. Mexico is in a poor economic state, although there is no excuse for not obtaining a simple work visa. In all honesty, it's not very dificult for any Mexican citizen to obtain a work visa for the US. My uncle's construction business *DMBekus if you're in NJ and want a house btw * hires multiple work visa Mexican citizens each year. The entire process, assuming they had not committed a crime, can take less than a month to complete and they can work for years in the US.


What proof do you have that it is mainly immigrant children committing crimes? That's very interesting if true, but cite your source.

Plain and simple, no. As explained many a-time they act more as a loose hinge on society rather than any form of stabilization *all sorts of fun facts proving that in my previous posts *.

The country is made up of states, if they get money, the federal government benefits.

There is no great difference between citizens and illegal aliens. In fact, the only difference is the illegals pay less taxes and get less help from the government.

 

[animaldude]

Re: The American Political Madrun

The country is made up of states, if they get money, the federal government benefits.

There is no great difference between citizens and illegal aliens. In fact, the only difference is the illegals pay less taxes and get less help from the government.

and they don't belong here.

 

[Versac]

Re: The American Political Madrun

Farmers pay income tax the same way that those that run a business pay income tax. They take a set amount of money they take from each profit rather than being placed back into the farming business (supplies, paying workers, etc) and this is their income. Sales tax is an exception, however sales tax contributes to the state government, not the federal government. As for apartments, that is the responsibility of the landlord. We were talking about the income tax. Property and sales taxes contribute to the state and thus have no real crutch on the federal government or the country as a whole.

Given the income category of the vast majority of illegals and the government rebates on farming, would these taxes really be significant? I know for a fact that farmers pay almost no property tax compared to homeowners, and small-scale farmers recycle or consume the majority of their crop. Farmers are different from the rest of the populace in that they are taxed on profit, not income. As for your focus on income tax, let's zoom out a little. I won't publish specific numbers, but my family pays roughly 4:2:1 income tax to property tax to social security 'contributions'. Limiting a discussion to income tax immediately cuts out almost half of the discussion.

No one ever said they were receiving government benefits *or at least I never did...I'm not searching through countless posts*. For this...you actually need to be a citizen of the United States; it's impossible for them to even attempt to do so without being found out. As far as jobs this was already explained in a previous post. To summarize, they are mainly labor jobs, such as construction and farmhand. There is a rather large chunk of the American populous which is poorly educated or lacks the ability to work in an office or professional environment. Are we going to let these people have some of their only opportunities for work taken away?

Exactly. The 'drain' illegals place upon the American economy has been drastically overstated. They mostly survive on subsidence jobs the rest of America does not want to do. (After all, America has the largest self-described 'middle class' of any country. Anywhere. Ever.) While there is some competition from legal agencies doing the same work, competition is what America is all about. Competition lowers prices and breeds quality. You can't tell me that $117/hour for labor in car repair can't afford to lower its prices.

This is a gross overstatement of what would happen. Cuba is a communist country, they'll be fine if they were to go to Cuba. Mexico is in a poor economic state, although there is no excuse for not obtaining a simple work visa. In all honesty, it's not very dificult for any Mexican citizen to obtain a work visa for the US. My uncle's construction business *DMBekus if you're in NJ and want a house btw * hires multiple work visa Mexican citizens each year. The entire process, assuming they had not committed a crime, can take less than a month to complete and they can work for years in the US.

Congratulations, you're quite possibly a felon; and now I am too. The 2006 Immigration Reform bill made assisting an illegal immigrant or even covering up for the assister of the illegal a federal felony. Over 40% of all illegal immigrants enter the U.S. on work visas and simply don't leave when their time is up. Legally, the employer is responsible for making sure the immigrant is making preperations to leave when their time expires.

As to the situation to which illegals would be sent back to, I have to agree that being sent back to Mexico isn't a death sentence. It does mean however, that the person in question now has next to no hope of getting in the United States where all of their assets, connections, and friends were. It won't kill, but it will ruin lives. Sure, those lives weren't legal in the first place, but were they really doing harm?

As for Cuba, it is not communist, it is Stalinist. The difference is in a Stalinist government, if you do something like, say, fleeing the country and defecting to the economic giant trying to smother Castro's little regime, you are shot upon returning instead of welcomed. Now that is a death sentence.

What proof do you have that it is mainly immigrant children committing crimes? That's very interesting if true, but cite your source.

Plain and simple, no. As explained many a-time they act more as a loose hinge on society rather than any form of stabilization *all sorts of fun facts proving that in my previous posts *.

I noticed the pattern after I decided to pay attention to specific cases and track them back. I don't have any study results, but I can probably find some somewhere.

Who grows your food? Who mans the factories? Who builds the houses? The numbers show that 23%-32% of the time it's illegals.

 

[yoyolll]

Re: The American Political Madrun

As for Cuba, it is not communist, it is Stalinist. The difference is in a Stalinist government, if you do something like, say, fleeing the country and defecting to the economic giant trying to smother Castro's little regime, you are shot upon returning instead of welcomed. Now that is a death sentence.

Kind of off-topic but "Stalinist" is socialist-facist, right?

 

[Versac]

Re: The American Political Madrun

Kind of off-topic but "Stalinist" is socialist-facist, right?

Pretty much. This should help:

 

[webmasterbob]

Re: The American Political Madrun

Given the income category of the vast majority of illegals and the government rebates on farming, would these taxes really be significant? I know for a fact that farmers pay almost no property tax compared to homeowners, and small-scale farmers recycle or consume the majority of their crop. Farmers are different from the rest of the populace in that they are taxed on profit, not income. As for your focus on income tax, let's zoom out a little. I won't publish specific numbers, but my family pays roughly 4:2:1 income tax to property tax to social security 'contributions'. Limiting a discussion to income tax immediately cuts out almost half of the discussion.

You are correct in that respect, although you are failing to see the affects overall on lack of money going into the federal government. The thing is, we have no clear idea how many illegals are in this country working. Therefore, the affect can be minimal as you suggest, or the numbers can very well be catastrophic.

Exactly. The 'drain' illegals place upon the American economy has been drastically overstated. They mostly survive on subsidence jobs the rest of America does not want to do. (After all, America has the largest self-described 'middle class' of any country. Anywhere. Ever.) While there is some competition from legal agencies doing the same work, competition is what America is all about. Competition lowers prices and breeds quality. You can't tell me that $117/hour for labor in car repair can't afford to lower its prices.

...I think you completely ignored what I said in my previous post. There is a rather huge chunk of the American population which does not have the capacity to work in a professional environment. These individuals are the ones without jobs, they are the ones thrown into poverty, they are the ones suffering on the streets so an illegal immigrant can come into the country. Americans come first![/quote]

Congratulations, you're quite possibly a felon; and now I am too. The 2006 Immigration Reform bill made assisting an illegal immigrant or even covering up for the assister of the illegal a federal felony. Over 40% of all illegal immigrants enter the U.S. on work visas and simply don't leave when their time is up. Legally, the employer is responsible for making sure the immigrant is making preperations to leave when their time expires.

I'm incredibly insulted by this statement. I NEVER said anything to the extent of keeping them in the country beyond their end of work date. He makes certain they get back to their country. Even suggesting such an outlandish assumption only proves the inability to disprove this point.[/quote]

Who grows your food? Who mans the factories? Who builds the houses? The numbers show that 23%-32% of the time it's illegals.

Again, why is this? Because illegals are receiving these jobs rather than Americans in poverty who need them. According to the US Census Office as of a 2004 survey aproxamatly 12.5 percent of all Americans are living below the poverty level and unable to receive a job. Are we going to ignore this 12.5% of Americans? A bit of mathematics can prove that this 12.5% impoverished Americans far outweighs your overall statistic of 23-32% of total workers on such projects (being for those a bit confused his statistic encompasses only those professions, this encompasses all Americans).

Also Yoyoll as for your post on state governments receiving money, no it doesn't help the national government. They run on two separate bits of funding. Really the only time the national government has any affect on state money is when a grant is given for a general purpose, project, etc. If you study the American government you'll find a pretty clear distinction between state and federal functions.

 

[Versac]

Re: The American Political Madrun

You are correct in that respect, although you are failing to see the affects overall on lack of money going into the federal government. The thing is, we have no clear idea how many illegals are in this country working. Therefore, the affect can be minimal as you suggest, or the numbers can very well be catastrophic.

But we can't know. Any guess as to the economic impact of illegals is going to be just that, a guess. America is working right now with a standard economic expansion/recession cycle. Would it be wise to throw caution to the wind and evict 1/20 of the population?

...I think you completely ignored what I said in my previous post. There is a rather huge chunk of the American population which does not have the capacity to work in a professional environment. These individuals are the ones without jobs, they are the ones thrown into poverty, they are the ones suffering on the streets so an illegal immigrant can come into the country. Americans come first!

There will always be a market for food. There will always be a market for housing. There will always be a market for industrial maintenance. I fail to see how an addition to these labor pools will change that.

I'm incredibly insulted by this statement. I NEVER said anything to the extent of keeping them in the country beyond their end of work date. He makes certain they get back to their country. Even suggesting such an outlandish assumption only proves the inability to disprove this point.

You shouldn't be. The current visa system gives the employer all of the responsibility and none of the power. The employer is held accountable if the visa is exceeded, yet the employer often does not even know the length of the visa or whether an extension has been granted. The law holds the employer responsible for any mistake made anywhere in the system. A single mismanagement by anywhere in the system results in one more illegal and one less clean employer. Any company that employees visa workers with regularity is going to be brought under fire eventually, through no fault of their own.

Again, why is this? Because illegals are receiving these jobs rather than Americans in poverty who need them. According to the US Census Office as of a 2004 survey aproxamatly 12.5 percent of all Americans are living below the poverty level and unable to receive a job. Are we going to ignore this 12.5% of Americans? A bit of mathematics can prove that this 12.5% impoverished Americans far outweighs your overall statistic of 23-32% of total workers on such projects (being for those a bit confused his statistic encompasses only those professions, this encompasses all Americans).

I have absolutely no idea where you go the number 12.5% when unemployment is at 4.7% as of 4/2007 and 'poverty' is a nebulous concept that changes every year. Nearly the entire U.S. lives above the international poverty line (living off of $1 per day). When was the last time anybody in the U.S. died of starvation? What's there to complain about? Sure, poverty in the U.S. sucks, but it is never life-threatening. Compared to the developing countries many of these people come from, the U.S. is paradise. Yes, the well-being of Americans comes first and foremost, but would you be willing to lose a little bit of money to give somebody you will never know a life?

 

[webmasterbob]

Re: The American Political Madrun

But we can't know. Any guess as to the economic impact of illegals is going to be just that, a guess. America is working right now with a standard economic expansion/recession cycle. Would it be wise to throw caution to the wind and evict 1/20 of the population?

No, but I am not in the belief that we should immediately evict every single illegal and never have been. Again with the guessing perspective, what you say is that every estimation is a guess. True, so you are guessing that these individuals will not have a huge tax affect, I am guessing the opposite. The problem is we just don't know so I really don't believe this point can be proven either way.

There will always be a market for food. There will always be a market for housing. There will always be a market for industrial maintenance. I fail to see how an addition to these labor pools will change that.

Yes, however particularly in the South these areas of employment are oversaturated making it impossible for the individuals I've mentioned to get a job. Relocation is generally not an option either, for obvious reasons, and therefore these individuals are stuck on Welfare and other such programs.

You shouldn't be. The current visa system gives the employer all of the responsibility and none of the power. The employer is held accountable if the visa is exceeded, yet the employer often does not even know the length of the visa or whether an extension has been granted. The law holds the employer responsible for any mistake made anywhere in the system. A single mismanagement by anywhere in the system results in one more illegal and one less clean employer. Any company that employees visa workers with regularity is going to be brought under fire eventually, through no fault of their own.

Thankyou for further explaining how the system works and reconfirming that it is the employer's responsibility, although I'm fairly certain anyone will agree that "Congratulations, you're quite possibly a felon" is an accusation and a rather rude one at that.

I have absolutely no idea where you go the number 12.5% when unemployment is at 4.7% as of 4/2007 and 'poverty' is a nebulous concept that changes every year. Nearly the entire U.S. lives above the international poverty line (living off of $1 per day). When was the last time anybody in the U.S. died of starvation? What's there to complain about? Sure, poverty in the U.S. sucks, but it is never life-threatening. Compared to the developing countries many of these people come from, the U.S. is paradise. Yes, the well-being of Americans comes first and foremost, but would you be willing to lose a little bit of money to give somebody you will never know a life?

My number comes from the US government's census website. Actually, the numbers for 2005 are higher than that of what I've posted for 2004 *just read the first paragraph *. You can see the full document at the US Census' Official Website. I have nothing more I need to say for that, other than where did you get your number?

 

[Liriano]

Re: The American Political Madrun

I love the debates between the two webmasters.

Add in: Yes, except without the world exploding and mass death and destruction; this is a friendly debate .

The other stuff comes later. Steer clear of the chatroom...

 

[Capt. Zeroth]

Re: The American Political Madrun

I'm surprised at how well they are keeping their cool.

 

[Versac]

Re: The American Political Madrun

I love the debates between the two webmasters.

Unfortunately for the enjoyment of the members, most of the current issue has stalemated pretty well.

No, but I am not in the belief that we should immediately evict every single illegal and never have been. Again with the guessing perspective, what you say is that every estimation is a guess. True, so you are guessing that these individuals will not have a huge tax affect, I am guessing the opposite. The problem is we just don't know so I really don't believe this point can be proven either way.

Agreed. By the very nature of illegal immigration concrete numbers will never be availible. This is a stalemated issue.

Yes, however particularly in the South these areas of employment are oversaturated making it impossible for the individuals I've mentioned to get a job. Relocation is generally not an option either, for obvious reasons, and therefore these individuals are stuck on Welfare and other such programs.

I wouldn't say oversaturated. This is where the 23-32% numbers come in. Such fields are dominated by illegals only in undercutting prices, but said competition varies too much to draw a straight conclusion as to the effect. Stalemate again.

Thank you for further explaining how the system works and reconfirming that it is the employer's responsibility, although I'm fairly certain anyone will agree that "Congratulations, you're quite possibly a felon" is an accusation and a rather rude one at that.

Finally, something we can agree on! The system sucks! But I maintain that it was a statement of fact...

My number comes from the US government's census website. Actually, the numbers for 2005 are higher than that of what I've posted for 2004 *just read the first paragraph *. You can see the full document at the US Census' Official Website. I have nothing more I need to say for that, other than where did you get your number?

Uhhh...... the US Census' Official Website? With 2008 numbers no less.

 

[webmasterbob]

Re: The American Political Madrun

Uhhh...... the US Census' Official Website? With 2008 numbers no less.

That's the US Department of Labor, still viable statistics though.

Yea, I think we pretty much beat the immigration topic into a bloody pulp. BTW everyone take note, this is how you have an intellectual debate whilst remaining civilized .

 

[yoyolll]

Re: The American Political Madrun

Let's talk the "separation" of church and state. Someone start it off.

 

[Liriano]

Re: The American Political Madrun

Let's talk the "separation" of church and state. Someone start it off.

That's the US Department of Labor, still viable statistics though.

Yea, I think we pretty much beat the immigration topic into a bloody pulp. BTW everyone take note, this is how you have an intellectual debate whilst remaining civilized .

As for the church and state issue, its pretty much only Mike Huckabee who seriously wants the two to be convened.

I think this debate has actually remained quite civilized, at least compared to the last one.

 

[yoyolll]

Re: The American Political Madrun

Church and state should be completely separate. They should be a lot more separate than they are now. America is supposed to be a non-religous country, the public schools teaching religion is redicilous.

Look at the Middle East problem. Look at the people fighting in Iraq. If the country hadn't been heavily Islamic, that fighting would probably never have happened.

Religion always causes problems, the more you introduce it into the public, the more conflicts will arise.

 

[animaldude]

Re: The American Political Madrun

Good job setting an example

Separation of church and state... GOD SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN OUT OF THE PLEDGE.

Hmmm... other then that, evolution should be taught in schools being it's a highly respected scientific idea. But... BOTH sides of the argument should be provided. I agree with evolution but schools should also teach their students about ancient religions, their origins, etc and the other side of the veolution argument (if there is one). It REALLY annoyed me last year, when my school showed us two movies explaining how global warming is destroying the world blah blah, and yet they didn't provide the other side of the argument.

Separation of church and state shouldn't be taken too literally because the president wouldn't be able to say "God" without it. So I think there is room for some religious ideas to influence government... like the ten commandments!

You shall not murder.

That's a good idea.

 

[diezoberflote]

Re: The American Political Madrun

i think church and state should mate and then have a child, and that child should run our country. nah, i think grilled cheese should run the country. then again, MEAT TENDERIZERS YEA.